What have you got to say?

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Permalink Reply by Joe Tojek on November 19, 2007 at 8:46am

Hey Steven, good luck with your research. I have been playing live music in SL since 2006 and really enjoy developing the content of my shows and performing live using all of the affordances available to virtual characters. I am developing my character outside SL through the use of social networking sites and am working to bring the shows to people outside SL through my website.

The media hype is of course over-blown, in part I think due to the compelling nature of the concept of user driven content in 3D worlds.

Users are in many cases stereotyped, I have heard my interest participation characterized as an addiction, comments about current SL musicians being blown away when "real" musicians discover begin playing in SL in droves, and the scoffing of "real" musicians when they hear about people playing music online.

Cybersex is very engaging to some, for me it is too difficult not to laugh when avatars get naked.

I do believe that there will be a 3D web, in the near future, some kind of combination of a globe viewer application based on real geography with avatar based virtual world interaction across user hosted worlds when the equivalent of the apache web server for virtual worlds becomes available. Let me know if you would like to discuss in more detail.

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Permalink Reply by Steven on November 19, 2007 at 11:44am

Thanks Joe,

I completely agree with you in your points, especially about the future with using real geopgraphy and inhabitants of avatars and (I suppose with animals etc.) I'd imagine, now that Google Earth is becoming better and more advanced, that its only a matter of time before a 'REAL' virtual environment becomes the 'next big thing'. The opportunitys that a replica mirror world would great is endless. However I still have doubts (more so fear) in being overly immersed in such a place.

In relation to using SL as a platform for playing music, I believe it will really stand to you in years to come. Look at what MySpace did for unknown acts, its obvious that a similar trend will follow in SL. This is only if it continues to grow in numbers.

Would you agree that it hasn't really gained a large enough audience to become a success? I believe WoW got so popular because of word of mouth interest amoung people interested in that 'genre' of gaming. The problem with SL is that it appeals to everyone, and theres still people that never ever heard of SL.

I still believe that the majority of people I've talked to and know, remain pesimistic about virtual worlds, and even though they all eventually have dozens of MySpaces, and Facebooks, the overall opinion is that they're not pushed to register in a virtual world. The appeal of SL (and its possibilites) are just not believable for them. Would you agree?

Is there anything you can think of that Linden Lab (and other creators) could do to change some of the negative opinions people have of Second Life, or is it just a matter of giving it more time?

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Permalink Reply by Jack Ryker on November 19, 2007 at 2:17pm

Hi,

I've had a website offering virtual world building services since 2000.
I think the hype is necessary for web3d as it brings attention to it. Looking at the various news items throughout the years (online weddings sticks out prominently) the outside person may view the virtual worlds as a geek fest.
Well, if youre gonna get married online and take it seriously, then you probably are a geek. (I like geeks). However, what I think has not been emphasized enough is the psychedelic, graphic oriented, hallucinatory, sharednonphysical spaces that attract a creative crowd.

cyber sex? 3d cyber sex is funny.

The future is hard to see. I think perhaps sticking to certain principles may work better. For example, should web3d be accessible by 1 percent or 50 percent? Currently, most web3d is for one percent. I always thought
that with networked computers, a graphical visualization creates a shared space between two computers(or people)., and that this visualization is such a natural evolution that its like music.....
a lot of musicians say the music is already there and they are just picking it from the wind.

How to change negative opinion of second life? I believe that second life to most people is something
you read about, like a far away land of atlantis (heheheh) and if its hard to get there.... the
association with it reverses.

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Permalink Reply by Jack Ryker on November 19, 2007 at 2:31pm

Hi,

Thats an excellent point about real musicians coming in to VW's. Currently, digital arts is going through evolution as artist's grapple with tools. Digital art tools (currently, getting better though) really stifle
the creative process. The spontenaeity that comes from creating art phsyically, is gone with most
digital setups. Digital art, currently, is very technical and very precisely targetted. Hopefully, as tools
get more intuitive (for example, a full body immersion in a sculpting studio) then the arts will reflect
our connection to spontenaity much more aesthetically.

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Permalink Reply by Alex Fedotov on November 19, 2007 at 2:30pm

WoW was MADE popular by a company with 10+ years of business-experience in building communities of gamers. Other companies just don't have this.

What LL should do, if I may:
1. Size the world DOWN approx. 100 times (10 square miles instead of almost 1000) and increase prim capacity accordingly.
2. Reject zero gravity concept. People should NOT 'fly' - then grown-up people will look at it more seriously. It will have multiple other consequences. I'm not saying that vehicles should be prohibited, just opposite - there should be plenty of them. Just - avatar MUST NOT fly by itself.
3. Introduce zoning and regressive per-parcel tier (tier should be calculated for each parcel separately then summed). This would swipe away all junk piles instantly.
4. Forget about expanding by adding new servers, rather - replace junk-quality hardware by high-quality servers.
5. Develop adequate in-game customer support service. At least 10, better - 20 customer support NPC per square mile, better - CS person within a direct sight at all times.
6. Provide elevated level of support to legitimate businesses. Forget about this P2P fairy tale as soon as possible.

There are some economic maneuvers that MUST be implemented too, but ... WHO CARES? :)

P.S. btw, if you are doing research about VW and MMO maybe you will find our custom search engine ( Yolto.com helpful, it searches all industry specific web-sites, forums, blogs and is spam-free.

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Permalink Reply by Jack Ryker on November 19, 2007 at 2:34pm

I do! (c8

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Permalink Reply by Stella Costello on November 19, 2007 at 4:18pm

Interesting points, Alex, I agree that the current level of support is not working and that more measures need to be made on that front. However, surely you are joking in insisting that avatars shouldn't fly! If a sim owner should prefer that the users on their sim not fly, he/she can do this by clicking a box. To insist that no one be allowed to fly would not only be imagination suicide, but also gets rid of the easiest way to transport yourself within most sims.

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Permalink Reply by Alex Fedotov on November 19, 2007 at 4:33pm

No, I'm not joking.
Make an experiment (I made it like 20 or 30 times already):
1. invite your grown-up friend/neighbour/foe who hasn't seen SL yet.
2. describe to him/her how grown-up people can create avatars and socialize there... etc.etc.
3. log-in and walk - everything will be fine...
4. wait until somebody flyes above you or go to the place where it can happen...
5. wait one second.

Here's what you will hear:" Whew! YOU ARE NOT SERIOUS!" - exact language may vary depending on the level of sophistication, but the meaning will ALWAYS be: it's some kind of a joke, you are kidding me, I'm a grown-up person. Note: this NEVER happens if you do the same with There.com (where people can not fly).

Also, why fly AT ALL if the vevel of detail is 2 orders of magnitude higher and there's a lot of people around?... If you don't believe me - experiment in these directions and you will see the results.

You need to 'transport' yourself all the time just because of the poor level of detail. Also, that's exactly my point - there must be multiple means of transportation.

And I haven't said a word yet about poor positioning of avatars... about the level of detail in appearance which is just... poor... hehe. :)

The last thing: in its present state SL is built for landscape modeling and for people who like sightseeing, the rest is no more than a joke... unfortunately, it's really sad.

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Permalink Reply by Jack Ryker on November 19, 2007 at 4:37pm

Well, some worlds allow you to fly and other worlds don't. I think with outerworlds(not in the theme parks) it will be up to the builder. Is this kind of modification available in second life?
If I were to build a site for IBM DIREctlY on their website(at ibm.com/3d) I would probably cut off the fly
function. But if the site were to be built for the Fantastic Four.. then the constraints would be different.
Currently I build just for me so I have a flying Van.

Also, I think VW"s shouldn't neglect MMO's. An MMO is a child of VWs. There are tons of them and a lot of them look real good and are actually fun.

What is interesting is that I think t hese MMO's is old news in asia and in america is just only
going through beta or even alpha testing. Will it catch? Don't know, but some are real fun.
Zero 300 is one I currently play in. It even works on my old computer. Another I tried
is world of KungFu but this is one of those that doesn't work on my computer. And there
is Fly for Fun(works) since we are talking of flying.
The only thing is the avatars look so small and tiny but totally cool.......................................

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Permalink Reply by Jack Ryker on November 19, 2007 at 4:50pm

Thats very interesting observation. Personally I am a big nut of the fly function. I think,
that this person may eventually want to fly, after he gets used to the interface. I think
most of us really really want to fly.

In regards to second life, can't land leasors just cut off the fly function for their land? Maybe its difficult to acheive from a programming standpoint.

I know that in VRML, I miss the old fly function which felt like flying. The current fly function
in the browsers is just walking without gravity. heh.

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Permalink Reply by Alex Fedotov on November 19, 2007 at 4:55pm

Manipulation of 'camera' is THE most important and wonderful achievement of SL client so far. If you have it - you don't need to fly.
It's not about interface, Jack, I'm talking about the way to make SL environment big and 'mainstream' if you will, then there will be enough interest and money to keep improving it to perfection. 'flying people' , junk piles on every corner, poorly detailed buildings and avatarts IN THIS COMPLETELY ABANDONED VAST SPACE are 'no-go'.

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Permalink Reply by Jack Ryker on November 19, 2007 at 5:07pm

Yes, I've seen the videos of manipulation camera. Its a great way to manouvre your view...but I venture to say that that is not flying!

Some of the most interesting environments are a product of having no restrictions.
I think there should be a lot of areas just like this. I also think that some areas
should have restrictions available to the persons who control the space.
Just like in real life, you have areas where theres lots of trash, and you can avoid it
and go into more controlled areas if you like.

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